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David
(@alien)
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Oui toujours le pognon c'est grave!!


   
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ROLAND
(@smartkind)
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Début du sujet  

eh oui, alors ça raconte quoi ton article de psychiatrie ?

 

precise car la tsh ou thyreo stimulin hormon est un vaste sujet dont la majorite des sujets des dossiers est sans rapport avec la bipolarite


   
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David
(@alien)
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Moi j'ai vecu 12 ans dans époque lourd communiste,et je peux vous garantir que pognon été a la dernier place.


   
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David
(@alien)
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BIPOLAR DISORDER

Do you accept the idea that a treatment with no known risks, such as a dawn simulator, requires less evidence for efficacy than a risky medication? That does not appear to be the thinking in recent treatment guidelines, which put high-risk medications first line because of the number of studies that support their efficacy (quetiapine, olanzapine/fluoxetine, and lurasidone).1

But this is not how patients think. Especially in bipolar II, where they have often lived with symptoms for years, they are not looking for immediate efficacy as much as long-term tolerability. A treatment with no long-term risks and very low probability of adverse effects is appealing. By contrast, clinicians know all too well that mentioning a risk of weight gain and diabetes can take a medication right out of contention.

With all this in mind, imagine a new treatment for bipolar depression that:

• Has not caused medical problems in over 20 years of investigation

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• Does not cause weight gain or diabetes;

• Has no adverse effects for most people (and if they occur, are short-lived with dose reduction), including no daytime sedation or fatigue, even during titration

Such a treatment would likely be among patients’ top options (unless their depression was severe, in which case a treatment with strong efficacy data could also be a top consideration).

We might have such a well-tolerated, low-risk medication in our hands now. It has been under study since 1990.2 It has evidence for efficacy at a mechanistic level, and two small positive randomized trials.3,4 Have I got your attention, then? I certainly hope so.

My goal in Part 1 of this 2-part article is to open your thinking. I’ll admit, I myself am having trouble with this. I’m writing in part to convince myself, or at least explore my hesitations. If this is such a great treatment, I ought to have been using it a lot myself and I have not. I’m still not certain what’s holding me back. But old data have recently been gathered and systematically presented—reinforced by one new study, but perhaps contradicted by another. So it’s time to revisit this story.

What treatment am I talking about? Good old thyroid hormone. With only one randomized trial in bipolar depression when the recent guidelines were prepared, it keeps getting overlooked—almost.3 The CANMAT treatment guidelines list adjunctive thyroid hormone as a third-line treatment option for bipolar depression, down there along with monotherapy using divalproex, fluoxetine, and tranylcypromine.5

Thyroid hormone has been under study in mood disorders since at least 1981 when Dr. Peter Whybrow pointed out the connection between thyroid hormone and catecholamines.6 He and colleague Dr. Michael Bauer went on to demonstrate that even mild elevations in TSH were associated with rapid cycling in bipolar disorder.7 In 1990 they presented 11 cases of refractory rapid cycling they’d treated with high doses of thyroid hormone.8“Levothyroxine was added to the baseline medication regimen, and the dosage was increased until clinical response occurred or until side effects precluded further increase.” TSH was suppressed; and T4 levels went to around 150% of normal, Whybrow reported.9 In the randomized trial, the dose was 300 mcg daily, with a starting dose and weekly increases of 100 mcg.4

You’re asking yourself: “How come these patients don’t just become hyperthyroid, if you’re giving them supraphysiologic doses of thyroid hormone?” Of course that’s a key question. Whybrow and Bauer and colleagues have found that patients with rapid cycling bipolar disorder “respond differently to the hormone and tolerate it better than healthy individuals.”9 In other words, despite their TSH of less than 0.1, patients who respond do not develop tachycardia, palpitations, tremor, GI hypermotililty, or weight loss.

This will prove critical. Endogenous hyperthyroidism is associated with decreased bone mineral density and increased rates of atrial fibrillation. Are patients on supraphysiologic thyroid for bipolar depression subject to the same risks?

Suppose they aren’t. Suppose there were no evidence of increased atrial fibrillation, nor decreased bone density, with this well-tolerated treatment that is inexpensive and doesn’t cause weight gain or other metabolic consequences? Would you use it, given one positive randomized trial?

We physicians and psychiatric nurse practitioners are human. We closely monitor social norms, including how our colleagues are treating patients. I suspect that the lack of a psychiatric norm around using supraphysiologic thyroid is the limiting factor here, not an adverse risk-to-benefit ratio. But if you’ll even contemplate this “new”—old—treatment, then I have a book recommendation for you. After publishing detailed reviews of the putative risks of arrhythmias and decreased bone density with supraphysiologic thyroid, Dr. Tammas Kelly has written a guide to this approach: The Art and Science of Thyroid Supplementation for the Treatment of Bipolar Depression.10

Kelly’s book may help lower the barriers that impede the use of supraphysiologic thyroid. In any case, it’s a fascinating and well-written summary.  I read more than half of it standing right where I removed it from the shipping box. More on this in Part 2 on thyroid hormone as a treatment for bipolar depression.


   
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Nathalie
(@nate)
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Élo. Vu que je suis là j'en profite. Suis larguée sur l'alerte. Mais bon étant larguée tout simplement, voir le 36 ème dessous c pas encore assez profond. Contente de t'écrire David. Comment tu vas ? Et oui, mon cher docteur, l'argent, toujours l'argent, avant les êtres humains


   
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ROLAND
(@smartkind)
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Début du sujet  

david, as tu compris ce qu il racontait ce monsieur

 

dans un premier temps ce qu il raconte est vrai

 

les psychiatres s en tapent des effets secondaires, ils priviligie l efficacite au detriment du confort de vie et de la santesomatique

c est facile a faire puisque eux ne doivent pas supporter les effets secondaires

 

si par un mecanisme extra ordinaire les psy soufffraient autant que leurs patients proportionnellement aux doses qu ils administrent, crois moi , il diminueraient  les doses 

 

c sur que tout le monde prefere avoir un traitement efficace sans effets secondaires

 

mais les médicaments les plus efficaces sont ausssi les plus toxiques

 

c est parce qu ils sont toxiques que ce sont des medicaments

 

les chimiothérapies tuent aussi bien les cellules cancéreuses que les cellules saines c est pour ça qu elles ont tant d effets secondaires, c est le meme mecanisme

 

apres il s embourbe dans des explications farfelues a propos des proprietes de la t3 et La T4

il raconte que les hormones thyroïdiennes auraient des proprietes anti depressives

c est vrai que les hormones thyroïdiennes accélérant le metabolisme peuvent avoir un effet excitant mais ça s arrete là

 

il convient que rajouter des hormones thyroïdiennes chez un sujet bipolaire ayant par ailleurs une fonction thyroidienne normale peut entrainer une hyperthyroidie entrainant elle meme des troupes

 

apres double salto avant triple salto arriere, il se rattrape en disant

 

"supposons que"

moi aussi je pourrai dire "si" ma tante en avait je l appellerais mon oncle et avec des si on pourrait mettre comme disait asterix, lutece en amphore

continuons

"supposons que " chez les patients bipolaires cet effet toxique ne soit pas present

eh bien ça serait formidable

 

c est un melange de verites et de contre verites, c est un fatras d inepties

 

voila mon analyse

 


   
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ROLAND
(@smartkind)
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ben tu vois nat, j ai encore l energie pour m enflammer sur les forums


   
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David
(@alien)
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Oui j'ai compris environs 70% de ce qu'il écrire 


   
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Nathalie
(@nate)
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Tant mieux Roland et surtout j'espère bien 😉😊😊


   
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ROLAND
(@smartkind)
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oui david mais avec une comprehension partielle  tu ne peux pas faire une analyse complete et une synthese correcte avec une conclusion vraisemblable


   
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David
(@alien)
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Oui je sais il ma manque la pratique en anglais ,je suis en tourré par les russes plutôt. 


   
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David
(@alien)
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un amie russe viens regardé mon PC uuurrraaaaa


   
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